I honestly don’t know if I am emergent or not, or if I ever was. But… I used to have a “Friend of Emergent” button on my blog; I used to tell people that I was “with” the emerging church people; I used to feel a connection with the things I read and saw from those who say they are part of the emerging church. However, I removed my “Friend of Emergent” button today.
Why, you ask? Well, probably several reasons… and I don’t know that any of them are necessarily good. It probably has more to do with why I root for one sports team over another, or one player against another. Maybe it’s just a “feeling,” I don’t know. But…
- I don’t smoke a pipe or have any facial hair in odd places.
- I’m not young and hip and I really hate going to coffee houses, because I don’t know their lingo and feel stupid just ordering decaf coffee (and why can’t I just get a large and have it be the biggest size?).
- I am not well read in philosophy and church history, etc. (I just bought “Kierkegaard For Beginners” and if it weren’t for the pictures I wouldn’t have bought it).
- Honestly, and I don’t know how to say this in a nice way, I don’t mean to be mean, but… most of the people I know who call themselves a part of the emerging church seem very arrogant to me. Like, they have the answers – even though they aren’t going to share them – but “you” certainly don’t know anything. Maybe “smug” is a better word than arrogant.
- I used to think it was the emerging church that was being attacked by “other” Christians, but somewhere along the way it seems the tide has changed. Now the emerging side seems to be on the attack, or maybe it’s more of an “aggressive defense.” I don’t know, at any rate, this having-to-prove-we’re-right-and-you’re-wrong thing really brings me down anymore. As does the making fun of others.
- Perhaps the biggest turn-off for me is a bit more personal. I guess I’ve always felt myself to be somewhat emerging, or an emerging thinker anyway. I’ve always resonated more with postmodern’s or Gen-Xers or whatever you want to call them… but, quite honestly, I just don’t seem accepted by them. In fact, I feel downright rejected. Maybe it’s just because I’m too much of a simpleton, or maybe I’m a complete fool, but for some reason my emails never seem to get responded to, my comments go unnoticed, and whenever I am at gatherings of church leaders, I always feel left out. Actually, it’s more like, “Oh no, here he comes. Let’s find someplace else to go talk.”
So, I guess it boils down to… I am no longer emergent because of the emerging church people. Sorry. I realize it is probably mostly my fault – that darn lack of self-confidence and all. But it also raises the question of motive for me. Why do people want to be aligned with a specific part of the church? Why can’t it just be “the Church”? Is it because they really don’t like some people; they want to have their “own thing”; they just want to hang with the “cool crowd”? I don’t think that is it for most people emerging… but it can certainly “look” that way to some.
At any rate, I understand there are only a handful of you who read my blog. And I hope you know by now that I don’t really know much of anything about anything. My thoughts are fairly simple, rarely coherent, and largely biased by my severe lack of self-esteem and knowledge. So, don’t go thinkin’ this has near as much to do with the emerging church as it has to do with my own state of mind. It’s just me, you know. I will continue to read things from McLaren, and the Jones boys, and others, but… I don’t think I’m “emergent” anymore. I’m just a follower of Jesus. Okay?
This is what I think: We are all messed up. God is wayyyy patient with us. I like Tombstone frozen pizza’s (deluxe). I hope Jesus accepts me.
39 comments:
I've been reading a book on emerging churches ("Emerging Churches") and as of this morning, it was the first I've ever heard of such a thing, although I suppose that's where our little ministry is heading (or emerging into, if you will).
It's unfortunate, but I don't think that anything of what you've just described is at the heart of emerging churches--it is simply a byproduct of worldly infusions that can perhaphs overwhelm the heart of the "movement" or whatever you want to call it.
Besides, isn't being postmodern and "emergent" supposed to be being beyond the labels and imposed structures/forms (ie the goatee, coffee house style?). I really do see a lot of truth behind the emerging churches thing; as for the coffee houses, the tall-grande-venti triple nonfat caramel macchiatos, they have nothing to do with the matter ;)
dan - LOVE that honesty
i think that every year we should all ask ourselves if the meaning or understaning of the word "emerging" or "emergent" describes where we are.
last year i asked that question to a group of leaders and we all said yes - lets keep the term for another year
this year we should ask it again
meaning is ascribed, not inherent.
more important - as you say - to be part of the CHURCH rather than a splinter group or a little corner
anyway - keep us posted as to where you go with this. maybe you will start a revolution?
Post emergent, eh?
That is just one post to far.
Blessings
Ron
Great you are blogging again! I don't know enough about the emergent church to really have an opinion... I have many opinions but I'll only leave one as a comment... it seems when people join this emergent church thing it's because somewhere along the line they've been offended or turned off by thier Pastor, so they start thier own thing. Which I feel is wrong because the Word of God speaks of the need for a Shepherd over a flock. I see this almost as a church rebellion. Just my thoughts!
Wow, I appreciate the comments from all of you. Really.
Daintee,
I think you are absolutely right in everything you said. And that's a good book to learn about the emerging church.
Andrew,
Man, I am honored and humbled. You're the first 'celebrity' to comment on my little blog (yours is the first blog I read every morning). Thanks for the inside information. :)
Ron,
It's funny... I have heard the word "post-emergent" three times since last night. Hmm. I would hate to become a "post-er boy." :)
Debbie,
Always good to hear from you. And I would agree that there are some who call themselves 'emerging' who are doing it out of rebellion. But there are many, many good people too.
Have been thinking about 2 Cor. 4:7 "This precious treasture - this light and power that now shine within us - is held in perishable containers, that is, in our weak bodies." Hmm. More light; less me.
Peace & blessings everyone.
Hey man, I can certainly resonate with your experience. I neither have the button or consider myself officially aligned with EV, but probably for other reasons. Thanks for the honesty of where you're at.
(Here via Subversive Influence)
I've never been able to figure out what I feel about the "emerging" or "emergent" church. I like a lot of what I see, and I certainly like the fact that I can explore some of my questions. But like you, however, I'm a follower of Jesus, and I want to live that out in a very simple, yet effective way, with or without any other labels.
Thanks for these thoughts. It's always nice to find another voice out there who resonates with where I'm at!
steve :)
Glad I came across your blog. I've been working on an upcomingpost that touches on this a bit. I share many of your experiences, so I understand and appreciate your honesty here. One of the conclusions I have come to is that the name "emerging church" (or the church in the emerging culture) represents an amorphous matrix of complex, overlapping influences, ideas, histories, etc. It isn't (or at least shouldn't be, in my opinion) an identity category. Rather, it is a descriptive of a very broad phenomenon.
With our market driven culture, the branding of "emergent" terms means that anyone can use the name. Sadly, I think there are a lot of disgruntled Christians who identify with the name as a statement AGAINST where they are coming from rather than an affirmation of what the phenomenon actually represents (or represented). The development of Emergent the organization- who wisely, but perhaps too changed their name to Emergent Village- also confuses the issue, as EV does NOT and will NEVER equal "emerging church". They are one (important) part of that whole.
I mentioned in a recent post at my blog that one of the biggest challenges I find in the conversation is that the American voice, shaped by US cultural realities, tends to be the loudest voice, thus the one most identified with the larger movement. The problem is that much of the unique contextual characteristics of the American emergent conversation are not the same as the rest of the world. For example, given the historical relationship between Christianity and politics in the US, the emerging church is far more polarizing, resulting (often) in the mutual "attacks" you mentioned. Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that the US is ruining it for the rest of the world, but rather that we need to recognize and differentiate these issues from the core of this broad emerging church phenomenon.
As Andrew mentioned above, meaning is ascribed, not inherent. Many will likely abandon the term "emerging" in the coming years. While I think we have to be carful how we identify with labels, I also think we give them too much power. By saying we are or are not "emergent", or to create new terms, such as "post-emergent", we are still allowing the term itself to define our identity. Therefore, I will continue to use the word as a convenient reference point, which I will likely have to frequently qualify.
The same holds true with the title "Christian". What has been done under the flag of that title makes "emergent" look like a bid for sainthood. Can we really abandon that term because of its abuse, misuse, branding, etc.? I don't think we can. Christ came to earth as fully human, a distinction, an identification that is perhaps the greatest and most shocking move since Creation itself. Don't worry. I am not equating "emergent" with such examples, but rather that we will never find ones that will be free of these challenges.
Above all, I identify with and feel for your experiences of rejection. If you are still looking for a place to engage in welcoming dialogue online, let me know. After all, other than being a white male, I have no creative facial hair, no piercings or tatoos, I don't own a Mac, I am anything but hip, I don't drink alcohol or smoke (and actually have never done either), and I don't even drink coffee. So, like yourself, I don't fit in those categories at all either. (wink)
Peace,
Jamie
Kn & Steve,
Thanks for chiming in. I'm with ya'.
Jamie,
Great points and thanks for the insights. Yeah, it's not that I'm necessarily against emerging ideas or even EV, but maybe it's more that I question what some people have tried to make it into (and I'm as guilty as the next person). So, thanks. I appreciate you taking the time to share. Looking forward to reading your post.
Dan,
Great thoughts. And I resonated with what Jamie said.
I think that many of us have struggled over whether we are part of "the church that is emerging," to quote McLaren, or part of a club. My hope and prayer has always been for the first. Not to pimp my own stuff, but I wrote about this very issue about two years ago for the CMS'. The article was called Emerging as a Value. It is my hope that we will always be seeking God and always emerging, notwithstanding the language we use to describe God's work in our midst.
As an older guy - I turn 42 next month - I also resonated with your thoughts on being uncool. This has been one of my greatest struggles with all things Emergent and emerging church. It is hard enough to leave the normality of American Christianity behind, and then those that encouraged you to do so are difficult to connect with? It can be a lonely feeling.
All I can say is to keep seeking Jesus and listening to God's spirit.
Glad I found your blog! I also like Tombstone Pizza.
grace
Dan, you said, "whenever I am at gatherings of church leaders, I always feel left out. Actually, it’s more like, “Oh no, here he comes. Let’s find someplace else to go talk.”"
That breaks my heart. All I can tell you is that I have never felt that way about you.
It does cause me to repent though because I have felt that way about others, though it was a long time ago.
Arrogance is awful. It makes me think about how I deal with people every day. Admittedly, there are a few, "Oh no, here he comes" people. This is a good reminder for me to love them.
Brian,
I'm glad you've never felt that way about me, but, like you, I have to admit I have all too often.
You know, when I wrote this post, I wasn't thinking of anyone in particular - there is no face; just a feeling. As I also said, it didn't have near as much to do with the emerging church (or anybody else for that matter) as it did with me and my own insecurities and self-esteem issues. I really didn't know anybody was going to read it other than the usual people who already know I'm a head-case. :)
At any rate, I do usually feel like an "outsider" - but I don't know that that is because of others, or just how I am wired. I was actually going to post about that earlier ("My Biggest Problem"), but I've been having trouble getting blogger to work today.
Thanks for sharing though. And, btw... what's up with your blog? I miss it.
For all you Jesus Creed readers,
Hey... please don't judge me on this one post. To get the full story, you need to read some of the followup posts at (Danno's Dangerous Mind.
Does this mean I'm backing away on some of my comments - not necessarily. I believe there are problems with some in the emerging community. Just like there are problems with some in the Christian community at large. But I don't want it to appear I'm lobbing "bombs" just for the sake of lobbing bombs. This was more about "me" and my state of mind than about the ec.
Okay, that's my disclaimer. Rock on.
Dan,
While I'm not endorsing emergent-ness, and it may be right for you to have removed the button, I would encourage you not to be discouraged by human misrepresentations, particularly in your "smug" and "attack" points (both of which I have, sadly, seen too).
I recently had a similar thought process regarding the Arminianism vs Calvinism debate. But at the end of the day, I realized that I was still Calvinist despite a lot of other Calvinists (not that I really care that much). Quoting an even earlier post, I said:
One thing that God showed me ... is that just because people who claim Him can be phenomenally stupid, doesn’t mean that His character changes any or that anything that He says is untrue.
Maybe it's right that you don't identify yourself with emergent-ness. But between you, God, and the fence-post, who knows?
Oh, and Jesus' love is so great that he accepts you despite the fact that you like Tombstone pizza. ;-) I always thought the name was truth-in-advertising, because it tastes (to me) like something died.
I'm going to add you to my links. I appreciate what you had to say, and the comments as well. I've had too much of the anti-emergent talk, and I can see where they are getting involved in "aggreesive defense" but like you, I just want to follow Jesus, not any particular movement or fad.
We can't try so hard to fit in, nor feel bad when we don't...Sincere faith in the LORD Jesus Christ, that's what it's all about.
I don't really have anything to add to this conversation - I just wanted to do my part to bring the comments up to 20. Cheers,
Darrell
Got here from SmartChristian.com.
Regarding your generic question, which applies to emergents, LCMS/ELCA/WELS Lutherans, Good News Methodists, et al:
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Why do people want to be aligned with a specific part of the church? Why can’t it just be “the Church”? Is it because they really don’t like some people; they want to have their “own thing”; they just want to hang with the “cool crowd”?
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I think the primary reason is to identify oneself as a "true" believer. Many people say, "Jesus, Jesus," but may not truly be believers. How do you identify the believers vs. the non-believers? One way is to tag yourself as emergent, LCMS, or what have you to distinguish yourself from others who use Christian/Christ (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Christian Science, etc.). However, as part of that distinction from non-believers, we all end up happy in our little subcatories, rather than functioning as the Body of Christ.
LCMS Lutheran MySpacers (now how's that for a subcategory?) may wish to follow the discussion that I started here.
Brendt,
You just don't know good pizza, man. And the tombstone represents people dyin' to eat it. :) Thanks for sharin'.
Maryellen & Ontario Emperor,
I appreciate your thoughts and input.
Darrell,
Thanks for the comment boost. And I like the new pic. :)
peace everybody,
dan h.
"whenever I am at gatherings of church leaders, I always feel left out. Actually, it’s more like, 'Oh no, here he comes. Let’s find someplace else to go talk.'"
Dan, I very much identify with what you've said here. I have felt that my viewpoints were dismissed and excluded when I would talk with other Christians (usually church leaders or seminary students planning on going into ministry) and that as time went on, I simply was not invited to participate. Although it hadn't been said in so many terms, I was definately considered 'outside' the conversation. It didn't seem to matter that I was directly involved with ministry to post-moderns in area colleges and Universities, and it didn't matter that I was reasonably well read in philosophy and church history either.
For the past year, I have considered myself postemergent. This isn't the same as anti-emergent, but honestly my first concern as a believer in Christ was not to join in the infighting and squabbles of the emerging church, but to find real ways that we as Christians could better be the body of Christ, and live incarnationally and missionally within the culture around us. Of course, a few years ago we weren't using those words, heck, we didn't even know what we were doing, but we had a genuine body with genuine spiritual fellowship and a genuine heart for reaching out to others.
Somewhere along the line, everything we were doing became labeled as 'postmodern'. Then it got labeled the 'postmodern church'. Then it got labeled as 'emergent', and thrust in with all these crazy notions that truth is irrelevant, apologetics is just fighting, doctrine should be flexible beyond reasonable bounds of orthodoxy, playing on the Theological fringes is fun and exciting, and Brian McLaren and Don Miller were the coolest and biggest things to come along in Christianity since Jesus Himself walked the streets of Nazareth. Now 'emerging' is used mostly to put distance between folks and McLaren, but most of the damage had been done. What was good and blessed by God self-destructed with infighting, both in what I saw in the ministries I was involved with and with the emerging church as a whole.
My goal is to move beyond where the emerging church is now by putting a corrective on much of what has happened, to take insights not just from church history but from out contemporaries throughout Evangelicalism, and treat the body of Christ - the whole body of Christ - as the body of Christ, with agape love. And I want us to take the missional mandate more seriously - to understand culture as subcultures that each have their own missional needs, to integrate existing apologetic methodologies into our practice of Christianity that listen and respect people in culture, to be more intentional about how we live for Christ in all spheres of life, escaping the sacred/secular split imposed on us by the surrounding culture.
Frankly, I don't have all the answers about how to do this, but I do know that bickering and infighting in the body of Christ is killing us, both individually and corporately. Part of the reason I started my blog at EvangelicalResources.Org is to explore some of these issues and start sharing and including people, trying to build toward something rather than leaving everything so vague and open that it remains permanently empty and meaningless, basically to make discussions constructive rather than whine fests, and put our talk into action. I think that the only way for that to happen is to move beyond the current conversation in the emerging church, and move on to a mature understanding of life that is in Christ.
Maybe being post-emergent is being emergent outside of the conversation. Lets live it and not talk about it.
Glad you got some Kierkegaard Dan he will lead you down the right path!
Michael,
Some very good thoughts. Thanks.
Doug,
I agree... "let's live it and not talk about it." And I hope you have a good trip to the states. Thanks for chiming in.
Peace, friends.
dan h.
I like the honesty you bring to the subject, I actually know very little about the 'emerging church' and it's doctrines but from what I have read on blogs I don't really mind their stances...I may even be aligned with them in theory (I don't know any emergent peeps personally).
I think the church as a mass culture needs to change a lot of it's mandates but i also see the need to be inclusionary of all people that believe in Christ. I know I don't agree with all Christian view-points but I do know if they believe Jesus then they are my brother/sister also. The church needs to change and if some take the 'social club' mentality with them to the emergent church, well they better 'check' themselves.
SocietyVs,
Good points. I think there are many who are aligned with the emerging church and they don't know it. Maybe it's better that way :). You have an interesting blog.
peace,
dan h.
In a way I can identify with you by not knowing whether or not you would align yourself with, or call yourself emergent.
But I wonder if it is because of possibly confusing "Emergent" with the bigger picture of the Emerging Church. When I first started studying and looking into this whole "conversation" (which wasn't that long ago, an I'm definetly no pro) I thought it all was limited to what was being written and said by McLaren, Emergent Village, etc... But what I've found is that they only represent a portion of what may be considered under the Emerging Church, and might very well come off as you described (smug?).
The important part of it all remains, as you have alluded to, not in whether you have a trendy button on your blog, but if you are about the mission of God through Jesus and the Gospel. Meaning, are you focused on how you may better communicate the Gospel to your immediate culture. period. Anything beyond that stretches the limits of the relevancy of the whole "conversation."
Thanks for your thoughts, I agree with you in many ways and found them interesting and thought provoking.
Rick
Rick,
Thanks for the comment. I think your middle paragraph says it all.
I do want to point out that I am not "anti-emerging church" OR "anti-Emergent"... it's more that I've become leary of what it has become for some people. I have a great deal of respect for Brian McLaren and the people at Emergent Village. But, as with everything, once a following develops, you never know where those followers might go.
peace & blessings,
dan h.
You know what, I don't really know anything about anything, so please disregard this post and any comments I've made. Thanks for stopping by though.
dan h.
Hey Dan,
Not true, bro. This was a great and important post. I am very glad you wrote it.
Peace,
Jamie
It's a little ironic, as Emerging Church, I've gathered, is supposed to be creating environments where everyone feels welcome, and yet maybe the attempt itself is creating an environment where not everyone feels welcome.
May not be possible to really create such an environment. No matter what you do, someone's bound not to feel comfortable, I suppose.
Do you suppose that the high focus on youth ministry that's been going on in recent decades, creating environments that appeal exclusively to youth, might have contributed to a kind of youth-centricism, where younger people are only used to being around others their age and mindset, rather than a wide variety of people of different ages and backgrounds? I ask because I've encountered something of the same here and there in my own part of the Christian world. It's not unique to EC.
This, too, I suppose, is part of human nature: people tend to gravitate to like-minded people of similar ages.
On the other hand, Christian youth who are home-schooled, I've noticed, are much easier being around people of all different ages, because they didn't grow up in age-segregated environments. May have more to do with our educational system than with anything specific to EC.
Just ruminating here. I'm not EC myself, just very interested in what they're doing. Hope you don't mind my commenting. Your post was interesting, and related to issues I also think about. God bless.
Hi Aimee,
I don't mind you commenting at all. In fact, I encourage it! And I think you make some extremely good points here.
I've always been a little leary of the "youth group" mentality in church. I understand it has its positives in many respects. But I pastor a small church, and I really think it is in everyone's best interest that we learn to do things "together." It is definately easier with a smaller group, but it still takes great patience on everyone's part. Older people need to learn that it's not all about them, and they need to be willing to get a little funky. But at the same time, they're teaching the younger people that it's not all about them either.
I've never really thought about this from an EC perspective, but it does make sense.
Thanks for stopping by.
peace & blessings,
dan
I’m just a follower of Jesus. Okay?
Thought I'd take a moment to answer your closing question.
Yes, it's more than okay! See Luke 9:23.
HE ALONE IS WORTHY
Dan,
Low self esteem or not, your statement is wonderful. I happen to like a setting that accepts all ages (from crawling to walkers with walkers) I don't have a tribe, I am a Lutheran. Ok, I like Lattes, but we won't go into that.
From what I have been finding out in my research on the emerging church (and I'm not done yet) it seems to be a white boys club for young adults 22 - 35 (?). Not too much diversity and you do need to fit in.
I'm a 49 year old married female mother of two. I happen to think that Jesus is my Savior and we was sent to this earth as a sacrificial lamb. Is that too old fashioned? I trust we are all children of God and through Christ we can be rest assured that we have a place in heaven (according to Peter). Paul reminds us that as mature Christians, our deeds will reflect that we truly are one with Him. Beyond that, why complicate things.
I have never felt the need to get into deep theological/philosophical discussions on what may have transpired in the 2nd or 3rd century, or why the book the James was chosen over the book of Mary in 130 AD.
I would rather feed the homeless, tend to the elderly, visit the sick, gather supplies for the down trodden. In other words, I guess I would rather be a servant of God than sit around and talk about it.
So Kudo's to you!!!! Serve your church, be humble, drink milk and eat your cereal.
Thea said,
"I would rather feed the homeless, tend to the elderly, visit the sick, gather supplies for the down trodden."
If only more attitudes like this would 'emerge' in the church today. :)
Thanks for sharing.
Dan
The problem with the term emergent is that it has gone from a philosophy and idea to a label and grouping.
The way I see it, the emerging church was supposed to be non-denominational. It has the potential to change spiritually dry churches into thriving, powerful change-the-world churches.
If "emergents" are becoming cliquey and only keep to themselves, they've lost all meaning of what emergent was supposed to be.
Thea's got it right. Emergents are supposed to mirror the early church, not create new denominations.
Dan,
I hope your journey to identify with the Church primarily is a blessing. I am always akward with any label (emerging, postmodern, genx, tombstone pizza lover, etc...). I am sad that you seem to have had some negative experiences, but I think you will find that most of us are confident about only a few things that we actually know and the the challenge of living the gospel is not easy for anyone. You are always welcome to visit us here in Houston - -I'll buy the coffee and you'lll find it is not about being, hip, cool, trendy, or fun. We are just hoping to engage the beauty and sacredness of real Christianity.
much love,
Chris Seay
Chris,
Thanks for the encouragement. You are right, there are many positives about the emerging church, and many, many great people. And... if I'm ever in Houston, I just might take you up on that cup of coffee. :)
peace,
Dan
I left the emergent church and willow creek fruit cake circus for Fundamentalism.
I have never learned as much as I have now that I am a ardent fundamentalist.
I attend an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church. I will tell you this its not at alll about the movement but about the way that the movement emphasizes a close relationship with God and the truth found in His Word alone.
As long as fundamentalism abides in the Truth I will remain a Fundamentalist and I'd strongly encourage others to purse Fundamentalism as well.
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