Regarding the post from yesterday: Reality church by another dan...
I don't think that means that everyone who leaves a church does so because they are going through those stages. Dan K. states, and I agree, that some churches should be left and they shouldn't be returned to. There are some bad churches. There can also be some very legitimate and maybe even good reasons to leave a church. So don't go thinkin' that I'm dissin' anyone who's ever left a church. I've done it myself.
But I HAVE seen many people go through those stages. And there are plenty of people who are just plain messed up too. I always think it's funny to run across pastor haters, or church haters, and then they'll run off a whole list of things they want the church or the pastor to do for them. And usually, even if it could be done, then the list continues to grow. Some things just take a lot of time, a lot of patience, and a serious commitment to obedience to God and loving one another.
Which brings me to another thought: I have a hard time reading people's criticisms of the church, and of church leaders in particular. I admit, I usually take it personally. It's hard for me to grasp that they might not be talking about me. Part of the problem may be because I know there are always going to be things people CAN criticize me for. I am pretty critical of myself. I'm not perfect. However, I forget that part of the reason I went to seminary was because I didn't like how things *worked* in our church at the time. Sure, I think I felt a specific calling, but I was also sick of what seemed to me to be a faulty system. I didn't like the fakeness, the inauthentic going-through-the-motions, the doing of things "just because." I believed there had to be a better way. And I think there is. I like to think the church I am a part of now is different from that. But at the same time, I also have to confess that we still fall way short. There ARE times when I do things "just because." There are times when I am less than into what I'm doing; when I do things solely to keep people from complaining; etc.; etc.; etc.
So... I guess I don't really have an answer or a point. I'm trying, ya know. And I think most people are. I don't know what else to say.
Anyway, I'm feeling snarly about the games yesterday. I was rooting for the Cowboys, Colts, and the Illini - and they all lost. I need to repent of this hatred I have for IU basketball. I'm not kidding either - it's not a joking matter to me, and I don't know why I feel this serious about it. Plus I just had to shut down my credit card because someone is trying to use it in Taiwan; I had some *issues* yesterday; I've got some stuff on my plate that I don't want to look at, much less eat; and... well, there's other stuff but you get the idea. I need to find somethin' to get my mind off this.
Peace
7 comments:
I was buying you a rickshaw.
Hey, cool... maybe I can find a homeless person to pull it for me! (this is a Seinfeld reference, not a slam on the homeless)
too late, I'm offended. I'm going to wait in the lobby of your church and storm out when you get there--you know, so you can see.
"You don't even really GO to this church."
"That's what makes this so awkward."
(Seinfeld again)
Hi Dan,
I stopped by the other day and tried to leave a comment, but couldn't seem to say what I wanted to say.
The other Dan's article has always frustrated me. Although I see the accuracy in it, my feeling is that it's sometimes more complicated than that. I don't think it's likely that people usually end up back where they started.
In our situation, we looked at all the doors available, knowing that Stage 10 wasn't an option. We didn't feel right about house church for us, so we settled in at our local willow-creek branch and ended up back at Stage 4. To be honest Stage 8 is looking appealing.
I don't hate church or pastors, and I don't feel bitter or angry about any of it, just more of a sense of "what's the point?"
Even with all of my "there must be a better way" thoughts, I don't see it as, "what's wrong with them", but rather "what's wrong with me, and why won't I get plugged in and happy here?"
Maybe we are only as misfit as we want to be. And I'm not sure why I identify with church-leavers since technically we do go to church.
Anyway, those are my rambling thoughts about the whole deal. Not sure if they make sense.
Grace,
It makes perfect sense to me. Now if I can do the same.
I totally agree with you about Dan K's article. Thus the *continuation.* I felt bad about posting it - not only because of your present series, but I know there are others who read here who have left churches and they don't fit into those stages either (not AT ALL). I also don't think of you as a pastor-hater or church-hater. In fact, maybe what has always appealed to me about your writing is the similarity to how we (Jane and I) used to feel in our experience. We left and didn't return either. Like I said, sometimes it's a good thing (the same goes for you too, Lori, if you're reading).
I admit, I sometimes struggle with some of the comments people leave on your blog, and with other people's blogs especially. There are pastor/church-haters out there - who do fit into Dan's stages. I don't put you in that camp, and what causes me great frustration is then people like you, because it reminds me of what I used to be most passionate about in ministry - those who were disillusioned with the church, those who had left or those who wanted something more. That was me (and Jane), and it makes me mad at myself when I realize all too often that I've forgotten that; that I have settled or begun to sell out. So I wonder if that is part of what draws me to your blog.
It really does break my heart that you find stage 8 the most appealing; and I resonate as well with the "what's wrong with me" feelings. Is that why people like us blog about what we blog about?
Anyway, I'm probably just rambling. Let me just say - I think you are one of the good ones, Grace. I wish everyone could articulate and think things through the way you do. If you're family is ever interested in moving to Fort Wayne, IN - I know of a great little country church that would love to have you! :)
Also, please forgive my irresponsible blogging. I write like no one is reading (usually it's just me and MR trading Sienfeldisms), and I need to remember that other people do occasionally read here. I'm too much of a whiner and complainer. Maybe what upsets me most about *leavers* is because I identify with them too, and I'm a freakin' pastor!
Anyway, I appreciate you stopping by, and am really glad you said something.
Peace & blessings.
Dan,
No need to apologize, you didn't do anything to make me feel bad. I've read Dan's post quite a few times in the few years I've been blogging. It hits me a little differently each time.
There is a lot of truth in the post. Idealism and cynicism are two sides of the same coin, and both will ultimately result in unrealistic expectations and an inability to deal with reality.
We are probably an unlikely pair of blogging friends, but I think we share a similar hope for the church - even though you are a pastor and I'm out wandering in the weeds.
I enjoy reading your blog because it helps me to remember there are some really good people (with just a healthy touch of cynicism) living faithful to their calling. And I like the ordinary stuff of moving the treadmill, life at the church office, stuff about your wife and kids, and of course log dog. :)
I commented because I trusted you would understand. Thanks for listening and for your encouragement.
Grace,
You said: "We are probably an unlikely pair of blogging friends, but I think we share a similar hope for the church - even though you are a pastor and I'm out wandering in the weeds.
Ha! I think we are probably more alike than you think - especially in the pastor/wandering-in-the-weeds area. :)
I do believe we share a hope for the church. Hang in there. You offer more than you might realize.
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